Recent searches
Search options
Administered by:
I think people have been gate keeping Mastodon a little bit. The narrative that it’s for nerds or difficult to understand or set up seems far fetched.
People understand email and sign up for it right? We used to copy and paste code to add music widgets and confetti to our MySpace page, and that was widely popular.
So why is selecting an instance and understanding the separation of feeds such an ask?
Maybe we should change the conversation around the Fediverse and tell people what it allows, and what it does different than focus on the five minutes of mildly inconvenient setup.
@HilliTech I’ve been sitting on this exact thought for some time. I don’t belie it’s all that difficult. At all. You choose a thing. You choose another thing. You’re done.
I dunno if it’s gatekeeping, but even major news outlets are talking about it like it’s a foreign entity, and frankly, if you can navigate a news site, this should be a walk in the park. It’s certainly curious that this myth has evolved.
@rynltylr @HilliTech It's not entirely a myth. For some people (me included) it's not a big deal, but for some anything new is confusing, and a choice like that throws up a complete mental block. Then there's a lot of people on the sliding scale between the two.
Lots of people around these days are too young for MySpace or even phone area codes. They're used to sites that funnel them straight in and to the content, so a site where you have to search it out is a whole new skillset to learn.
@zeborah @rynltylr @HilliTech I think the overarching issue here is that Mastodon and other and services on the Fediverse have high switching costs.
Picking a server is just one of them. Finding your friends to follow is another. I’m sure we could come up with more.
@Lundemo made a humorous comment on young people not having the skills that old people had from systems they have experienced that worked a lot like the FediVerse and not like Twitter.
https://mstdn.social/@Lundemo/109496206572320192
Even though I agree that one loses the right to denigrate old people for not being savvy when one is regarding the FediVerse as "hard", it's less about age and more about _breadth_ of experience rather than length. About only ever having used Twitter.
@zeborah @rynltylr @HilliTech this is it. tons of low fruit wrt the onboarding process, discovery process, ux. it's understandable that a lot of folks are in the 'it's free, what do you expect' camp, but all of these things will eventually be improved. thousands of folks are working on it passionately (and thanklessly for the most part). #foss
@zeborah @rynltylr @HilliTech I'm still getting my head wrapped around the idea that younger generations are actually less tech adept in some ways.
@cjones47 Whoever came up with "Digital Native" has a lot to answer for. The types of "Internet people" described in Gretchen McCulloch's _Because Internet_ seem more realistic to me.
Think about it this way: just because you grew up taking lightswitches for granted doesn't mean you know how to change a fuse or rewire a circuitboard - let alone fix the plumbing.
Unless you're *interested* in the tech you just learn the least needed to do what you want.
@HilliTech it's brought up because "pick a server" is a barrier. Understandably it's not that hard, but no other service that people sign up for today that's widely popular involves choosing a server.
I know people that work with software creation everyday (eg designers) that got stopped by that step and decided meh, I will check this later.
@laimis @HilliTech I think the various Mastodon clients could solve the “sign up/pick a server” barrier for newbies… give an option to choose, but if the users doesn’t care then just push them to one of the more popular instances. A round-robin type allocation could be done (based on number of active users) so as not to overload any particular instance. Some apps are already offering some form of sign up Wizard to help ease entry already.
@laimis @HilliTech this is what I’ve experienced as I’ve tried to get friends to switch. They’re willing until it comes time to find/pick a server, and then the choices (and the pressure to find a “good” one) stall the process.
@ms_rey @HilliTech exactly! same experience here!
I agree. The anxiety of picking the "right" server is one of the spots where my less technical friends tend to stall.
Another is trying to follow someone using a web link to their profile when their profile is on a different server.
A third is that certain big accounts (many politicians, NOAA, NASA, etc.) aren't here yet, except, in a few cases, as relay bots.
@HilliTech God, I forgot about the MySpace code! Anyway, good point!
@HilliTech I think most people just signed up with whatever mail provider they found first and didn't think about it much. Social web providers are a bit higher-stakes, since censorship and harassment are both bigger concerns. And centralized social has dominated for so long that everyday Internet users have practically forgotten what the Internet is; they are comparing fedi to Twitter, where people expect to just install an app and have an immediate account creation flow.
@f00fc7c8 @HilliTech this right here. It's why success inevitably means big players in the space because the big players offer easy on-ramps for the common user.
The power in federation isn't in many small players, but that big players can't hold you hostage.
One major issue is related to the management of instances being totally unregulated and so the process of picking a server comes with a lot more trepidation and concern from a user perspective.
One off-putting issue for me, at first, was the lack of being able to move data from one instance to another in case the server you are currently on does become unreliable.
I kinda got over that by just considering that wall garden social media sites don't allow you to automatically shift all your posts to another site either.
And so to judge Mastodon for not having that feature would be unfair.
I have been looking into how to overcome both of those issues, though. I have a couple of ideas in planning stages, but won't be able to work on them until later on this year.
@HilliTech I have a lot of thoughts about this particular subject.
I was one of the migration events. I came in a lot slower than others and I adapted, I think, readily into the flows. Just giving you the details so you can see through my eyes.
I had so many people explain how hard, technical, and impossible it was to even sort out the concept of Mastodon. The majority of those people were very active on Twitter, saw what was happening and have desperately clung to their audiences, or tried to find purchase on all the sites all while screaming how hard things are.
As you said, it's no more difficult than signing up to a million other things people do all the time. The only difference is the gap they have in people "moving their cheese".
Sure, there are some struggles to learn the new environment. But people are competent. Overall - people are entirely capable of growing into areas they want to. If they want it.
I don't think people want it. Most people, don't really want to change anything. We are creatures of habit and like to do things that we understand. Bird site is so synonymous that it is basically assumed you have a massive followership if you're a company or even real. People learned that THAT, the large followership, was somehow the measure of success.
They don't want to try it over here. It's risky having to pivot your business model. Or your engagement model... or your entire product model. For some people, posting to twitter is literally all three.
It's hard to convince someone of something they are paid not to understand. Twitter feeds them - until it stops, they'll resist admitting it's over.
@mentallyalex @HilliTech I've got similar thoughts about it. The first barrier was that it sounded hard to do - what on earth is Mastodon, what is an instance and how on earth do I pick the right one? Then trying to pick a server seemed hard, with many closed for registration due to being overwhelmed with new arrivals, and others requiring some kind of application process. Once I'd done that, it was a matter of learning a new environment, with people offering links to guides.
@HilliTech I don’t think this is a matter of gatekeeping. I think it’s a matter of people only wanting to do the bare minimum after too long in a world of uniformity where algorithms do everything for them.
@XanIndigo @HilliTech I don't think it's the unfamiliar setup itself that "bothers" new users - I think it's the combination of the unfamiliar setup and trying to understand what this new space is supposed to do for them, and how the setup is part of that.
If it was weird to set up, but you know what it does once you're in, or if it was easy to set up, but you know there'll be some exploring to find out what it does - either one would be a significantly lower bar, but together...
@HilliTech @BobWilliams There is a challenge to find others to follow if you are a “regular” person. I utilized the T word as an old school news ticker by following my preference of reporters, athletes, creators, etc but many of those people are not active here so it’s a different experience. Also finding those people across different instances can be challenging because you might not find them just using the search on your instance.
@HilliTech I completely agree, we need to start providing code you copy paste into your bio to add confetti to your home page
@HilliTech I suggest if you find anyone struggling, send them here:
https://paulstamatiou.com/mastodon/
And scroll down to the "Getting started with Mastodon" section. If this article had been around when I signed up, my experience would have been much better.
The top part also does what you suggest, so maybe just have them read the whole thing.
@HilliTech Hey, normal guy here. I tried to get people to join this place in the past five years. A lot of them give up on it, and it's not on them
The weirdoes forming weird attitudes about this place can turn them off but I don't think that's all there is to it
@HilliTech I think a lot of the usability complaints are really about people not wanting to leave their long-established comfort zone.
@HilliTech I think if we changed the word "instance" to "neighborhood" half the work would be done for us.
@Words @HilliTech
Going to borrow the "neighbourhood" model to talk about Mastodon servers. Thanks :)
@HilliTech I will say this: I've been on here since November, made two accounts for different purposes, and am now wondering if each one is on the wrong instance. Took some time using it to come to this decision, but it's a bummer.
@HilliTech I tend to compare it to email myself when explaining it to people!
@HilliTech in my experience main issue is that 90% of people use email from big companies that will (likely) not collapse overnight like Google Microsoft or Apple.
With mastodon and fediverse the problem is that many artists and merchandisers are dependant on discoverability. They can either risk setting up an account on an instance that can be gone one day, losing history of posts or go through hassle of creating their own.
On old socials they just have one account, that’s it.
@Ellie__plz @HilliTech Same issue for basically any organization that relies of paid PR/paid social management: brands, institutions, politicians, famous people, sports clubs. Like it or not, most users on social are there at least in part to interact with these sorts of accounts, and those accounts want easy discoverability, anti-impersonation enforcement, and global search for brand management. The Fediverse is explicitly designed to drive them away.
@Ellie__plz @HilliTech (In other words, centralized social media stands as proof that AOL was right and normal people just want to be able to stick a "keyword" in and get the appropriate content. That's why we have millions of entries in .com and thousands of other top-level domains now.)
@HilliTech who will help people decide what email server to sign up on??
@HilliTech Great points! My thoughts are that people have become accustomed to a centralized platform where a data-hungry algorithm tracks you and suggests groups/trends/people based on inferred interests. That doesn’t exist here. You HAVE to know what interests you and seek it out. That’s a concept a lot of people have forgotten about- and something Gen Z has rarely, if ever, had to do.
@travis @HilliTech been on here for months. I have no idea what you mean when you say I can seek my interests! But I want to know!
I have basically been looking at who my follows are following to find people. But it’s laborious.
@looserooster @HilliTech It’s as easy as using the search! For example, I like PHP dev so I search “PHP”. I go to hashtags and see different hashtags and explore them as well as the people who show up. As I follow people (and tags), people boost others they follow and if they boost someone interesting, I follow who they boosted. This is why if you want content to be found, add hashtags to your post and boost others you find interesting! 
@travis ahhh ok i get it. Thanks!!
@HilliTech The main problem I see is the term "server" or "instance". To non technical folks this will not make any sense when you ask them to choose an "instance" to create a Mastodon account. The better word would be "service" . This will alienate less and encourage people to sign up.
@HilliTech I’m not super surprised by this. One of twitters big criticisms was that it was “hard”, it wasn’t like the other social networks. You get dropped in to an app where out of the gate, you don’t follow anyone, and no one sees your posts. You need to poke around and “figure it out”. This is partly why the stupid algorithmic feeds are so important to Twitter. They surface content from minute one.
Mastodon is no “harder”. There is just one more minor speed bump.
@HilliTech @Gargron worth a try but people don’t get Twitter so maybe an uphill battle.
@HilliTech People have been using maybe 10 websites/apps for 80% of everything they do online for over a decade now. They want the sort of change that doesn't require them to change.
@HilliTech I think it just proves how much choice is debilitating to movement.
Just having to choose an instance makes you think - I might choose wrong and it’s easier not to choose even though at the end of the day your choice is irrelevant.
Software developers can handle it, but basically nobody else stands a chance. I hope "Hosting Services" are still coming online rapidly so that ordinary people (non-techies) can set up an instance they "own", but it sure would be nice if there were a way for individuals to get onboard as if it were true "Peer to Peer" rather than "Federated".
Regardless, the Fediverse is a huge step forward to move everyone away from Centralized Dictatorial Gov't-controlled services.
@HilliTech It's so crazy simple to sign up. We need to change that conversation to relate it to email. You sign up, get your friend's address (just like an email) and add them to follow what they do. Simple. Instances are irrelevant until (if) it becomes relevant. Even mail.com allows the user at signup to choose their domain (instance). People still figure that out.
@HilliTech @Gargron Twitter was pretty complicated at first. People figured it out. 
@HilliTech The problem is that people sign up for gmail or Twitter or Facebook and do not consider an alternative (like another email) since their friends already have an account on the same site. If anybody who recommends Mastodon recommends an instance to start with, it would not be an issue.
Unless you are on an instance that does not allow new sign-ups, then you can recommend a local instance.
E.g. I would recommend the regional instance in my state called hessen.social
@HilliTech I think it’s the language used. We tend to form jargon and acronyms around things we use regularly and become familiar with. Fediverse, toots, etc. Not just this platform and not just this medium. Mastodon is just unfamiliar territory. When it’s unfamiliar we’re more cautious as we learn to navigate. 
@HilliTech It's not a problem of difficulty, per se. It's a problem of discovery and a reasonable fear of missing out. This platform creates unequal user experiences because of server choice. That choice is completely arbitrary and unguided for the vast majority of new users. I understand the benefits of a federated system. I just think it should be treated as a challenge to seamlessly hide, not a feature to be centered. In my opinion, that's the opposite of gatekeeping.
@HilliTech I think you’re underestimating exactly how scared most people are of technology. There’s a reason great swathes of the world still use Yahoo Mail or Google and wouldn’t ever think of going somewhere else.
@HilliTech I’ve been on Mastadon since November and I still don’t understand instances. If I follow people from different servers what does it matter which one I pick? I’m sure I’ll have a lightbulb moment eventually, but as a newbie it is not transparent.
@daveley @HilliTech it matters for a few macro reasons (e.g.: if you instance gets blocked, has rules you don’t agree with, or goes down), and also the size of your instance (but really activity) affects what replies you might see when interacting with posts from other instances.
@fields @HilliTech I get the first (macro) part - to me it is kind of like a web server or a condo board: you only really care about it when it’s broken (server goes down, roof leaking, Nazis posting)
It’s the 2nd part I don’t understand. What does it mean that you and I are on different instances? When will I see your posts and when won’t I? Is it a probabilistic thing or are there definitive rules for when I do/don’t see content from other instances?
@daveley @HilliTech when your instance loads the replies to a post, it has no assurance that it has all of them, so you may only see a subset from other instances that your server has already cached. I’m not entirely sure how this works.
@fields @HilliTech thanks for the explainer Adam.
I don’t want to complain, but your explanation doesn’t help me understand the advantages of the fediverse approach.
Going back to @HilliTech original point, I think if the “selecting an instance and understanding the separation of feeds” is a concept that resists a plain language explanation, then that is maybe why so many new users are having trouble with it.
Anyways, just a newbie perspective.
@daveley @HilliTech This is helpful feedback. I added a section on this to my intro guide: https://fields.medium.com/a-brief-introduction-to-mastodon-587f36b6ba20
@daveley @HilliTech I don't know that this is something that's an advantage to the federated approach, it just is the way it is. Not everything that's different is going to be better, necessarily. It's not clear to me if this is perceived to be a major issue.
@fields @HilliTech Thanks. This is a useful guide and explains a lot to me.
When I first joined Mastodon I felt a lot of pressure to figure out the “right” instance to join. In retrospect, it seems like finding a large, stable instance is probably the best for most people looking to follow a broad range of issues?
@fields @HilliTech PS I’m using the mastadon client for iOS and am happy with it. I tried out Ivory but couldn’t figure out how to follow hashtags with it. Following hashtags is probably how I have found the most people to follow so far.
@daveley @HilliTech in Ivory you can search for a hashtag and it shows a follow button at the top when you view the hashtag. That may have been added recently.