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Protest sign reads: My grandpa didn't survive Auschwitz to bomb Gaza. #gaza #Israel #freepalestine
@ned Obviously a lot of Israelis did survive the Holocaust to bomb people because it's been happening for various reasons (some justified, some not) since shortly after WWII ended and Israel was created.
It's probably being too charitable toward humans in general to assume that going through something like the Holocaust would automatically make someone a pacifist. I could see quite the opposite happening where many such folk would feel the need to be overzealous in defending themselves to make sure they don't fall victim again.
@jimvernon Yes, you are very much correct.
The point though is not that Jews can't be monsters (like people from any other ethnic group), but that the Israeli who ARE monsters are doing it in the name of Jews, and claiming that not supporting Israel is "anti-Semitic". That's the point that's being refuted here, not the idea that people can be monsters no matter what their background.
@ned @jimvernon Indeed.
The part about being overzealous in self-defense deserves special attention. Much of the fervor in support of Israel stems from a feeling of vulnerability on the part of Jewish people that is well-justified both historically and in the present moment. Efforts at stopping the genocide in Gaza need to grapple realistically with that.
Yup, I have seen a lot of Israeli who still feel vulnerable, and think that Netanyahu has their backs.
They need to realize, as many more have, that in the "conflict" between Palestine and Israel, they are not the vulnerable party, but more importantly, that there is NO WARMONGER who will make them safe.
The latter part is what I'm starting to see more and more Jews, especially the younger generations, acknowledge. Netanyahu is the reason for war, violence, and danger.
And likewise, Palestinians don't lean on Hamas for safety. They are afraid of Hamas, as they are of Israel.
@ned @jimvernon Yeah, that’s message — and it’s a hard one to get across. When we say “ceasefire,” we hear “stop killing the innocent,” but many people truly do hear “I don’t want you to feel safe.”
Netanyahu knows all this, of course. He was on political life support before this war; it’s a war of personal survival for him.
@inthehands @ned @jimvernon That’s the story, but frankly it doesn’t add up, given that everything Israel is doing is - objectively and indubitably - making Jews both inside and outside Israel LESS secure. Also “well-justified in the present moment” is clearly factually wrong.
@ned @jimvernon
Would you both mind not theorising about the experiences of people connected with the Holocaust please and thank you.
We’re here, we exist, you can just ask us.
My grandparents were Holocaust survivors (barely); my great-grandmother and her two sisters were murdered by the Nazis.
‘Never Again’ means Never Again. Not in Germany, nor Gaza, nor Ukraine, nor Yemen, nor Darfur, nor South Sudan, nor Rwanda, nor Myanmar, nor Kosovo, nor Bosnia…
Never. Again.
@jimvernon @ned you don’t need to be a pacifist to oppose what the IDF is doing to civilians and civilian infrastructure and historic sites in Gaza. You can even be committed to violent retaliation against Hamas while opposing the violence against the rest of Gaza. Maybe other people meant it differently, but I never took “never again” to be about armed combat